Speaker 1: 0:26

Welcome to Pickleball Cheat Code, the show for competitive pickleball players who want to level up their game. We focus on advanced strategies for experienced players, stuff only the pros really know. I'm Brodie Smith. I'm a 5.5 level player and a coach, and I'm here with the king of the nerds, the man, the myth, Mr. Chris Olson.

Speaker 2: 0:48

Hey.

Speaker 1: 0:49

Chris is the leading paddle and product reviewer in the pickleball space and is an expert when it comes to all things pickleball gear. Today, we're covering everything you need to know about paddles, gear, and what you need or don't need in order to take your game to the next level. At the end of the episode, we will be playing a round of this or that pickleball edition, where I'm going to be putting Chris in the hot seat. So he's got to answer questions as fast as he can, and then you can watch the video version of the show on YouTube and Spotify or listen wherever you currently get your podcast. All right, Chris, how are we doing today, man?

Speaker 2: 1:39

Doing great. How about you?

Speaker 1: 1:40

I'm doing fantastic. Long time no see. I know you recently saw a video that we did roasting some paddle reviewers. I just wanted to get your. Your quick take on that.

Speaker 2: 1:50

See, the crazy part is I remember those matches a lot different than you remember them. You had a really good Photoshop job of changing the score, because I remember actually beating you in both of those matches.

Speaker 1: 2:00

Okay, yeah, that's good. That's good. Yeah. I'll give it to Aizic. Aizic is the one of the two of you that did take me down once, but we did have a good singles and a good doubles battle. Those were fun. What happened there? I know you tried to target my backhand, but give me the breakdown what happened there.

Speaker 2: 2:17

Here is the thing. Kyle and Garrett both came up to me and they said, look, this guy's new here, and if you beat him, it's going to shatter his confidence. If a 35 beats this new employee, like, there's just no way he's going to stick around. So I did it. I did it for you.

Speaker 1: 2:31

This is. I knew those. I knew you were going to say that. All right, I'm glossing over that. Unbelievable. As you can see, Tanner's been on vacation, so we had to find and settle for the next best thing, AKA Chris Olson.is here. so what we wanted to discuss, you know, how drilling, training, experience, those are obviously the most important factors in pickleball that help take you to that next level to get you from 3.0to 4.0.4 to 5.050to 6.0. However, you can't overlook paddles, gear, lead, tape, grips, and all the other accessories that, you know, play a huge factor in your success. And especially in terms of finding what is the right fit for you, there's a proper fit for everybody, which is why we have Chris here today. And, you know, we really want Chris to help us break this down and help players find what is best for them. But before we get too deep into that, Chris would love to hear more about your story. Getting into pickleball, how long you've been in the space, and just hearing a little bit more about yourself.

Speaker 2: 3:29

Yeah, for sure. So I've been playing pickleball, I think right around four years now. I just had a buddy that came up to me one day. You know, we'd hang out all the time, and he was like, hey, you should come play pickleball. He's like, I know you used to play some tennis growing up. You'll probably like it. I had zero idea what pickleball was. And I was like, sure, I'll go out and try it. And I got absolutely rocked. And for reference, this guy has no racket sport background. Like, he played. I think he only played soccer. So I'm sure I got pickled in at least one of the games, but I probably didn't score more than, like, five points. And I was sitting there going, there's no way this guy with no racket sport should be able to beat me at mini tennis. In fact, I think we literally played on a tennis court with the tennis net and, like, maybe there were pickleball lines. We might have even just been using the service box. I honestly can't remember. I should go back to that park and check. But, you know, yeah, he beat me pretty good. And I was, like, hooked immediately. So I went, bought some paddles, and the rest is pretty much history after that. The addiction was immediate.

Speaker 1: 4:32

Bought some paddles. When was the last time you had to buy a paddle?

Speaker 2: 4:35

You know, actually, not that long ago. Sometimes. Sometimes I will go and buy a paddle. If I feel like there's something weird going on with a paddle, I'll go and buy one just in case a company sent me a weird one, which I don't know that's actually happened, but just to be extra diligent, sometimes I do that.

Speaker 1: 4:53

Yeah. Okay, well, let's take a step back here. So paddle generations from when you started, you know, four years ago to where we are today. It's just Been the biggest jump I've ever seen in technology. I mean, like, pickleball is such a new sport. So for me, the latest and greatest technology doesn't always mean the best though, right? You know, obviously paddles have improved a ton over the years. The more recent probably the better, but not always the case. Do different generations fit different players skill sets in your opinion at all?

Speaker 2: 5:25

I wouldn't say so. These terms got coined a couple years ago when thermoformed paddles came out. We started referring to paddles as Gen1, which is basically just built like a sandwich. It's literally just the polymer honeycomb core. And then they glue the carbon fiber face or fiberglass face to the paddle. And that was pretty much how it was built. And then Gen 2 came along, similar thing, but then it was put inside of a mold and pressed and heated and like kind of fuses it together. And then Gen 3 came along and it was kind of like this weird term where basically it started getting called gen 3 anytime it was a gen 2 paddle. Plus they cut out part of the core and put some amount of foam in replace of that core. And then recently people have started to call full foam cores gen 4. But honestly like the whole generation thing at this point has kind of become like more marketing buzz than anything else. Like people will start doing stuff like Gen 2.5, Gen 3.5 and like they're just making stuff up if it's like slightly different at that point. So all people really need to know is that the gen term just kind of refers to how things are generally built and not better or worse. Like a gen 3 is not inherently better than gen 2 and gen 2 is not inherently better than gen 1. They all have things that make them uniquely good and have unique downfalls for each of them.

Speaker 1: 6:57

Yeah, because the more recent paddles, they play a lot harder. They're hitting a lot. You know, the speed is insane. Whether it's deflection, like you know, your pop, or the dwell time, that's creating a really heavy drive. Do different generations though, are they fitting different players skill levels, for example? So like, would a3.0 be a better fit to using maybe a Gen1 or a Gen2 paddle versus a 5.0 or 6.0 player using a more recent paddle? Do you see any connections between that at all? Because some of the older ones play a lot softer, which could be easier for dinking and stuff.

Speaker 2: 7:30

Yeah, I wouldn't say necessarily. Like Gen 3 a lot of times is pretty associated with heavy power. But the thing with A lot of Gen1 paddles is their sweet spots tend to be considerably smaller. So even though a Gen 2 paddle on average might have more popping power, the sweet spot is also bigger, which would make it easier to use. And like there's so many variations of all these paddles. Like you have Gen 2 and probably even some Gen 3 paddles that are more on the control spectrum and would be easier to use than a gen one. So I would say it's less so about the generation fitting a person's style of play and more within each of those generations. There's a control paddle, all court and power.

Speaker 1: 8:17

And I feel like sweet spot too can be one of the main factors. Like it's a risk reward thing. You know, we had the Thomas Wilson signature paddle, which is 12 millimeters. I try to play with it, I can't get any consistent shot. I mean, some players that aren't necessarily as high ranked as me or whatever, they can play with it way better. So it's just interesting like how Thomas can use such a fine, small sweet spot to make that paddle work so well versus ones. I think Dydem had a 20 millimeter paddle, for example. But the control aspect of those super thick ones are crazy. But you're not getting the pop and the power necessarily. So I guess my question is, you know, you have your bangers and your dinkers and then you have players that like to play passive versus playing really aggressive. What would you attribute a better paddle shape or you know, what generation or what would you attribute to those level players that are focused more on banging versus more in dinking?

Speaker 2: 9:16

Yeah, for sure. I think it's. It's kind of tough because everyone is so unique. Right. Like there's a lot of different combinations to consider when you're choosing a paddle. Like first would be shape, I would say. And there's three main shapes you can pick. You have.

Speaker 1: 9:28

Let's break down the shapes because I feel like the shapes is. That's the most important factor. Yeah, in my opinion at least. And that's the game's really changing in terms of what shape is, you know, more sought after. Everyone used to love the fully elongated ones, but you saw me switch to the square. I know you switched to the square or at least you have been using that too. But.

Speaker 2: 9:47

Yep.

Speaker 1: 9:47

Yeah, if you want to break that down, it'd be great.

Speaker 2: 9:50

Yeah. So there's three main shapes and then like occasionally there are ones that branch outside of that. But the three that you really need to know about are elongated, which most people are familiar with, I would say that's still today the most popular shape, just because that's what's been being produced for the longest. And paddle shapes are all determined by the dimensions of the paddle. So an elongated paddle is 16.5 inches in length. And then a step down from that is a hybrid shape, which not every company carries. More and more are starting to have them, but there are still a number of companies that don't. But a hybrid paddle is on average about 16.25 inches in length. And then you have the third one, which is a standard shape or a wide body. There is some small nuance to that. For example, a standard shape is often referred to as anything that is 16 inches in length by 8 inches wide. And then wide body is often anything shorter than 16 inches. However, you'll hear a ton of people use that word, myself included, interchangeably. Like most of the time, I don't think it's worth differentiating standard and wide body if it's like 0.1 inches different. but those are the main three ones and each of them have like unique advantages. So an elongated, on average, it's going to hit the hardest. You get the most reach out of it. So if you love to take balls out of the air at the kitchen, you're going to do best with that one. But they're also, on average heavier, they have tighter sweet spots. And those are the downsides then wide bodies or standards, they are going to be the quickest in the hand. So if you're looking for a light paddle, it'll by far be the easiest to find it. Within that shape, they also have very large sweet spots. So if you're someone who needs a more forgiving paddle, wide bodies are going to do that really well for you. And then in between that, which is why it's called a hybrid, is kind of just a hybrid of an elongated and a wide body. You get, you don't lose all the reach that you would with a wide body. And you don't have the reach of an elongated, you're somewhere in the middle. And then you also have a sweet spot that is larger than an elongated, but not quite as big as a widebody. So you get some trade offs. So it really depends on what you're looking for. And I think one of the nice things about a hybrid is that you still have good length, but it's quicker to swing than it elongated. So people who like longer paddles but can't deal with the swing weight, very helpful.

Speaker 1: 12:22

Kind of the best of Both. Let's say you're a newer player, maybe a 3, 0 like yourself. Right. What, what paddle shape would you attribute to somebody that's newer to the game versus somebody that's been around and had a lot of experience and you know, is playing more of that pro level?

Speaker 2: 12:37

Yeah, for sure. Honestly, these days, if I was taking someone just starting and they had no sport background at all, I would start them on a wide body paddle because I think for most of them it's just going to be the easiest thing to use. It's not hard to swing. It has a more forgiving sweet spot. And honestly, in my opinion, people at lower levels aren't missing a ball because of their literal reach of the paddle. It's like, yeah, if I hold up a paddle, they're like missing somewhere on the edges of the paddle. Right. So they're missing over here. Not necessarily way up here. Now, sometimes you will. Yeah, but I think the more forgiving sweet spot from the widebody is more beneficial. But you'll see on the pro tour, very few, there are more and more, but very few pros are playing a wide body. And most of that is they come from tennis. So they're used to long racket. They want as long as they can get.

Speaker 1: 13:30

Do you think it's just the two hand backhand aspect of it or the reach aspect is why the pros are using that? You know, because of what they're used to. Is it. Which one do you think you attribute that to more?

Speaker 2: 13:40

I, I think it's multiple things. I think one, coming from tennis, they just want something longer because they're used to hitting a sweet spot on tennis racket that's way higher. So if you go from a tennis racket to a wide body, like if I hold this up on an elongated, the sweet spot's probably going to be somewhere about here on this wide body.

Speaker 1: 13:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:57

Versus like here. So the difference in like that seems small, but muscle memory it is. That could be a big difference.

Speaker 1: 14:04

It took me two weeks to switch because I played elongated from the very beginning. Just because that's what everyone was like. Yeah, just get that. And I had a little bit of a tennis background, so that's what I used early on. And then recently I switched to that wide body for a lot of the reasons that you listed, that consistency, that control. And we're both using the same paddle now, which is great. You know, you're using the, you're, you've tested a lot of paddles. What is your main, by the way. Is it the, is it the true foam, Chris?

Speaker 2: 14:29

It's, it's still the true foam. It's still the true foam.

Speaker 1: 14:31

Did we pay you to say that? That's not us, right?

Speaker 2: 14:33

You definitely did not pay me to say that.

Speaker 1: 14:36

Just making sure, just checking and then your. But we're also noticing a trend with higher level players. I feel like switching to that wide body and to that square shaped paddle. I mean, I talked about this in a different episode with Tanner. Like James Ignatowicz had that tweet about, you know, that's going to be the future. Do you see pros in, you know, the six level players all switching to that wide body in the future or maybe a hybrid?

Speaker 2: 15:03

So personally, what I think is going to happen is that all of the top players who are, let's just take Ben Johns, for example.

Speaker 1: 15:11

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:11

He is never, in my opinion, going to switch to a wide body. He has hundreds of thousands of reps on an elongated paddle and there's no reason for him. I think the benefit of switching at this point would not be greater than the time he loses having to retrain everything. But what I do think is that the newer generation that's coming up, these kids are starting out. Oh yeah, they're all crazy, insane. And they're starting on wide body paddles because they're lighter and easier to swing when they're a kid. Their muscle memory gets used to that. And then as they go up, I think a lot of them are going to stick with that. Especially because I think as the game gets more powerful and everything goes faster and faster. Like having something quick in the hand to counter at the net, I think is important. But also the game is so much more random than tennis is. Right. Like it's a slug fest in tennis. You're hitting a bunch of ground strokes. It's very predictable. Once you get to the net at the kitchen, they could speed up in a million different places on you. And I think having that extra forgiveness at the edges is extremely valuable. Now, I know most pros are hitting the center, but still you can't account.

Speaker 1: 16:19

For, you can't control it. Every single time. There is the element of chaos. Like you can't. That's a good point for sure. No, that makes a lot of sense. And then one thing that I wanted touch on too and kind of transition from is for lead tape, specifically, because lead tape can really change how a paddle plays. For me, I would rank that as number one most important accessory. Would you? Hands down. The same thing, right?

Speaker 2: 16:44

Yeah. Yeah. Not. No question.

Speaker 1: 16:45

If you could, I would love for you to give a breakdown of, you know, it can be. You've already done videos on this, so if you want to keep it high level, that'd be great. But of what different lead tape setups there are and what would help optimize for, you know, maybe a beginner level player versus an advanced player or somebody that wants to play defensive versus somebody that wants to play maybe really aggressive and drive every ball.

Speaker 2: 17:10

Yep, for sure. So I think similar to paddles play style and the paddle that you chose will have a big impact on how you're going to customize it.

Speaker 1: 17:20

So because taping is a wide body versus an elongated is pretty different, right? I treated it the exact same. But I know talked about this and other reviewers have as well. I feel like you do different spots because the swing weight and the twist weight are different, right?

Speaker 2: 17:34

For sure. I think there's different things that are inherently better or worse on certain shapes as it is. So putting weight in certain spots might be making an attribute better that is already good on that shape. So I'll kind of go over the different zones you can put weight in and then we can kind of talk about how that might affect certain paddles or why you'd want to do it. So I, I like to think of when I'm teaching people how to wait their paddle, there's like four zones on the paddle. So like one of the zones would be the handle of the paddle. And if you put weight in the handle, there's a lot of debate about how this impacts the paddle. Really what you're doing is just shifting the balance closer to the handle.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Yeah. What about. Speaking of that too, what about like slice caps and flick weights and stuff like that? Do you think that's a pretty important accessory as well when you know, same thing. I don't really know, honestly.

Speaker 2: 18:26

Yeah. So taping would do the same thing. The biggest advantage of a slice cap or any of or a flick weight is mostly convenience. So like a flick weight, you can literally just put it on this butt cap and you don't have to unwrap the grip and make your grip weird with like the weight underneath. So convenience. That's a big reason too. But largely they're going to do the same exact thing. So yeah, weight in the handle, just going to change the balance. Some people feel that makes their hand speed faster. The common argument that I give, and I'm not going to claim that this is 100% correct. But at a certain point, if you were to add enough weight, your paddle would become slower. If you put. I'm going to go extreme here. If you put 10 pounds of weight in your handle, I promise you it's slower to swing than when you started. So that means at some point, if people believe it's fat, makes your paddle faster to put weight in the handle, there becomes a point where too much weight actually makes you slower. So I'm not going to claim it does nothing. I think it changes how the paddle feels.

Speaker 1: 19:24

Do you think it's more placebo thing? Kind of like when you're going up to bat and baseball and you put on those weights before you go hit? Like, is there some element of a connection there? Or no. Or, like, do you think. Is there a way that. Is there a way to test this? Has somebody tested this?

Speaker 2: 19:38

I think there are things that can be done, but I think what it really is that it's. It is going to change how it swings in your hand or how it feels. But I don't think it's. I just don't think it does. What most people believe it does is more what it is. Okay, so zone one, handle. The next zone is kind of like bottom of the throat all the way up to about the top of where the corner goes. So this chunk right here is a good spot to place weight if you want to make your paddle more stable and not make it that much slower in the hand. So if you're like, this paddle's already kind of at my limit of how heavy I want. This is a great zone to increase the sweet spot without it getting that much slower. Zone 3 is pretty much anything at 3 and 9. So the entire side of the paddle before you get to the top and bottom corners. This is a really good spot to one, make the sweet spot even larger. If you're going for making the stability of your paddle better, increase the sweet spot. There is not a better spot than the side right here. And the benefit you get from here versus the bottom for sweet spot is that you also make your paddle a little more head heavy so you can drive the ball harder. The ball doesn't push your paddle around. If you go to block at the net, you can just hold it there and it'll feel a lot more stable than before. So if you have a really light paddle that twists in your hand a lot, 3 and 9 is really good.

Speaker 1: 21:04

Good. Okay, so that's your go to. Okay, that. That. This is your current lead tape setup, by the way, and how many ounces is that total that you have?

Speaker 2: 21:11

this is probably. Let me do some math. Really? 16. Oh, gosh. What would that come out to? It's probably like 0.5 ounces on my paddle. Maybe a little less. This is actually fairly light tape on.

Speaker 1: 21:34

Here, because that paddle comes in about 8 flat, I believe. So then you're about 8.5 total.

Speaker 2: 21:40

Yep. Roughly around there.

Speaker 1: 21:41

Gotcha.

Speaker 2: 21:42

And then the last zone on the paddle is just anything on the head. And for most people, especially if you're a beginner messing with tape, I'm not going to say this is a bad spot. I think there are reasons to use it, but the head is really. You're just looking for power. You're going to make your paddle significantly harder to swing when you put it at the head. Like how hard your paddle gets to swing. It goes up exponentially faster when the higher you go up your paddle, the lower it is on your paddle, the less it's going to impact your hand speed. But if you just want the paddle to hit hard, the head is a great spot. Or if you feel that somewhere at the top of your paddle has, like, more of a dead spot, it doesn't feel that great when you hit there. Go ahead and slap some weight up there. Or even, like the top two corners.

Speaker 1: 22:27

Yeah, I think that really helps with that. Plow through for when you're at the kitchen. And then also for singles, I feel like paddles where they're just taping the top and then maybe zone three a little bit or the sides. do you have different lead tape setups for when you do singles and doubles, or you just kind of use the same thing? I just go the same, personally. Cause I like the consistency of the same feel for all my shots, but maybe it's because I'm not good enough. And I know players can switch really easily from, like, one paddle to the other and immediately have their brain connect muscle memory. But I just can't do that.

Speaker 2: 22:56

Personally, I'm the same way as you. I personally prefer I could do it. I mean, with how many paddles I review, I'm switching all the time. So it's not like it's new. But I do think the more consistent you can keep things, the better. If you don't have to change it up paddle to paddle, I think that's better. You will see pros in different environments, whether it's colder or hotter. Oftentimes they are using different weight setups depending on how they want their paddle to feel. Or singles. Like you Said like singles these days, it's such a baseline becoming more and more baseline. That lead at the head doesn't really matter because you don't really need hand speed and singles. You hit one volley where you have lots of time. Yeah. And you're hitting a lot of ground strokes.

Speaker 1: 23:36

So do you have different recommendations for a lead tape setup for somebody living in Florida than them living in Alaska? You said temperature makes a difference.

Speaker 2: 23:45

Well, so for example, if you're in a hotter environment, the ball is going to play a lot slower. So sometimes people will put it higher up on the paddle just to plow through and give them a little more put away power. And when it's colder, the ball is just harder. So everything's harder to control. And some people might use less weight or put it lower on the paddle just to widen up the sweet spot. I don't think that's something common that amateurs should really do, but I have seen pros change their setups based on environment.

Speaker 1: 24:12

That's advanced. That's an advanced cheat code right there. That's something I'm not even ready for. We have a question in our comments from YouTube from a name, a man named Rogue Gaston. We great name. Who mentioned does adding paddle weight help or hurt the serve? I seem to prefer more swing weight, but wonder if I should change instead my technique to get more power with a wrist snap instead. So I guess the question is I would first start by saying adding more weights probably always going to help your serve just because you're adding more power to it. but then wrist snap, does more weight make it harder to snap your wrist?

Speaker 2: 24:49

Depending on where you put it on the paddle for sure, if you put all that weight in the head, like you will need a stronger wrist to like snap stronger. So there becomes a point where too much swing weight in the paddle, which we'll get to and kind of clarify later, can slow you down and now make you less effective. So I would always tell people, technique is number one, like drilling, all of that. Like, you need to focus on that if you really want to get your fundamentals. And then you can enhance the drilling you've been doing and the skills you've developed by adding weight in certain areas.

Speaker 1: 25:20

Is there ever a time to raw dog it? Some players go no weight. I think like Vivian David. She still might, but she did for the longest time when she was just crushing it. I mean, she still is, but she had no weight on her. 1x14 and I Thought that was crazy because I feel like most players I'd say 95% use. No use weight. But do you think there's ever a benefit to not having weight?

Speaker 2: 25:44

Yeah, for sure. I think that's where what gets so tricky about a lot of these kind of conversations is a lot of people kind of want this, like, one answer that's like, all encompassing and at the end of the day, like, every single player is unique in what they want. So, for example, like on my paddle, I put all the weight on the sides here, and I find that's pretty comfortable. But if you look at a lot of pros paddles there and like, what I just said most amateurs probably shouldn't do is they're like maxing the weight out on the head. That's crazy because they have the forearm and wrist strength to handle that and they find it beneficial. But there are plenty of people who are going to go, you know what? Out of the box. I like how this feels. I like how it plays. It's the perfect weight for me. And for those, if you feel that way, there's no reason to advertise. Exactly. But if you feel that there's an attribute that's lacking, like the sweet spot, smaller, it's not plowing through, that's when I would tell people, yeah, let's try some weight. Because a lot of times people think, oh, I just need a new paddle. But weight can literally take a paddle you don't like and make it something you love. I've had that happen many times.

Speaker 1: 26:49

True foam especially. I mean, the difference between when you do add weight, you talked about this as well, is that since there is a lot of dwell on the paddle where it's really sinking in, the weight changes how the true foam plays. I mean, every paddle, it's going to make a massive difference. But yeah, it really. There's a lot of value in spending time to test different options and to not, you know, get antsy. You need to be patient with it. Sometimes people just like, no, I don't like it. After two hits, it's like, please, just try it a little bit longer. You know, see what it feels like. But yeah, and then before we transition off of weight, if you could break down for our viewers and our listeners the difference between swing weight and twist weight, because I personally get those confused all the time. I'm not the one developing paddles here. So if you could, you know, dive, that would be super helpful, for sure.

Speaker 2: 27:36

So these are two metrics that basically can kind of give you a profile of how a paddle is going to swing or certain Attributes about it. Swing weight, I think, is a lot more important to the average person than twist weight. Basically all swing weight is so like everyone is familiar with putting their paddle on a scale and going, it weighs 8 ounces. But the thing is, 8 ounces tells you almost nothing about how that paddle is going to swing. Because what if five of the eight ounces is literally from here up the paddle? And what if you have another paddle where 5 ounces is in the handle and then 3 ounces is in the head? That will feel literally like completely two completely different paddles, and they weigh exactly the same. So how weight is distributed is really important. And swing weight is basically, there's these little machines that swing the paddle back and forth and then it spits out a number, which is the swing weight number we use. And that is a number that can tell you how easy or hard a paddle is to swing. So the general range goes from about 100. There are paddles that can go less, but most of them are over 100 and then I would say up to about 125. So at 100, that means the paddle is very fast. It's going to feel very easy to swing. And at 125, it's going to feel very heavy, more difficult to swing. But what people need to understand is that a lower swing weight is not always better, and a higher swing weight is not always bad. The pro that you gain with a higher swing weight is that when you make contact with the ball, it will just go. The paddle will go straight through the ball. If you're holding for a block, that ball is not going to move your paddle the higher your swing weight is. But, but if it's a really low swing weight, it might push your paddle back and make blocks more difficult. It's a, it's a trade off, right? You don't want too high that you can no longer swing the paddle effectively, but you also don't want too light that now the paddle is like pushing you around or the ball is pushing you around.

Speaker 1: 29:36

It's a lot of info. I'm not going to remember any of that, but it's very helpful.

Speaker 2: 29:41

Hopefully the viewer remembers. And then twist weight, yes, is another metric. Basically it measures like how stable the paddle is, essentially. So like the little machine, instead of swinging it like this, it twists it back and forth. And the more weight there is at the edges of your paddle, the more stable it will be. So if you get a low twist weight number, that means your paddle is going to Be more prone to twisting. So if you, if a ball hit here, it's probably going to do this when you block it. If you have a very high twist weight, the paddle is more likely to stay in place and not twist off center as much.

Speaker 1: 30:17

Makes sense. What are some key numbers that you kind of look for when you're looking? Cause I know the paddle nerds love to dive in when it comes to swinging weight and twist weight. And most people don't really care about it, including myself. but what do you like, what's key for you? Like if you're looking just at a piece of paper, what do you want to see in those numbers?

Speaker 2: 30:35

Ideally, yeah, I would say, you know, the common thing that you're going to hear probably nerds talk about is like this, almost minimizing and maximizing. Right. So people are wanting to minimize the swing weights.

Speaker 1: 30:48

Okay.

Speaker 2: 30:49

The paddle's not too heavy, but they want to maximize twist weight because then that generally speaking means you have a more stable paddle in the way to.

Speaker 1: 30:57

Do that where it's perfectly balanced in theory, you know, where you're getting the best trade off possible.

Speaker 2: 31:01

Okay, so for example, like twist weight numbers, they range from about 5 up to about like 7.5, 5 being on the low end. 7.5 meaning it's very stable. So if you took a paddle and it had a 113 swing weight, which is pretty middle of the road, the vast majority of people are going to swing that very easily. And then you had a twist weight of let's say 7.2, people would on paper see that and go, oh, that's a very quick in the hand paddle to swing and it's very stable. Now on the other hand, if you saw a 130 swing weight and a twist weight of 5 on paper, what you would be seeing is I have a really heavy, hard to swing paddle and the sweet spot is probably going to be small or at a minimum, like when I miss off center, it's going to go like.

Speaker 1: 31:48

This happens all the time for you, right dude?

Speaker 2: 31:51

All the time. I mean I'm hitting, I'm usually hitting the ball like right here. It's my preferred spot.

Speaker 1: 31:55

I'm sorry, all the dents on there. Speaking of that paddle erasers. I'm sure when you're cleaning your paddle they're probably just all around the sweet spot. You just have ball markings everywhere.

Speaker 2: 32:05

Yeah, in fact I actually never hit the middle. I just have a ring outside.

Speaker 1: 32:10

I hate you. So other gear that's important, obviously tape, we just clearly established is king.

Speaker 2: 32:18

And actually really quick before we move on from that, because I'm sure people will be curious about this. A lot of people say, how much weight?

Speaker 1: 32:25

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:25

Should I add?

Speaker 1: 32:26

Oh, yeah, that's. That's key.

Speaker 2: 32:28

Yeah. So what I tell people is I would start with more on the paddle than less. I'll see people who do these really small strips that are literally like 1 to 2 inches long. And I'm not going to say that's going to do nothing, but the more you add, the more it's going to change how your paddle feels. So if you really don't like it, I would start with more. And then if you really don't like it, you could peel some of it off, cut it off and stick the rest back on and just keep going down until you find what works for you. And feel free to, you know, take it all off, put it in a different spot. Like, the tape is relatively cheap and I wouldn't be like, so worried about, oh, I have to find the perfect spot on the first try. If you're brand new to this, it's going to take you a couple tries to find a good spot.

Speaker 1: 33:12

For me, I think the all encompassing thing that does work in terms of casting a wide net for a lot of players that I help out with and help them get set up is kind of how you have it set up right now, going sides or bottom corners Answers like 95% of people's questions on where to put their lead tape. So if you do just want to start with it and then between tungsten, the lead tape. Are you using tungsten primarily just dye from the.

Speaker 2: 33:37

Yeah, I use tungsten because I touch it so often that, like, I'm just customizing so many paddles that I don't want to deal with gloves and lead and scissors. So I use tungsten because it's not toxic. But the advantage of lead tape is that it is considerably cheaper than tungsten. So if it's your first time trying all of this, you might want to try lead first.

Speaker 1: 33:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:58

Yep. And then just wear some gloves or wash your hands right after and you'll be fine.

Speaker 1: 34:02

And then other ways to optimize a paddle, you know, like paddle racers, obviously everything's not going to be a must have versus lead, you know, what else are you using to optimize your paddle? Are you gripping over the handle? I personally do a tacky grip over the handle. I like a nice thick grip so it feels more stable in my hands. I use paddle erasers to make sure My grits all clean, which is, you know, not a must have. But I still think it's important to keep the face clean and, you know, get as much grit as you can. Any other gear that you think is, you know, accessories that are important for play?

Speaker 2: 34:37

Yeah, I think once you go past weight, everything pretty much becomes optional or personal preference. I completely agree with you. I really like tacky over grips. I put one over grip over the paddle. Sometimes I'll even take the stock grip off and I'll put two on just to make the handle feel a little different. But like, right now on the paddle I'm using, I have what's called a Hessa core. And these things, they just add some bevels to the paddle. And these are a love it or hate it thing. Like I. If someone picks one of these up and they say I hate it, that's totally fine. Some people, like myself, I like how it feels, but it's not making you better at pickleball. It's just how it feels in your hand.

Speaker 1: 35:17

What about eye protection? And we have two different pairs. We have the drifts and the pivots. There's two different styles. And you wear glasses a lot too, are you. You're always glasses on the court, aren't you? Indoor and outdoor, or just outdoor?

Speaker 2: 35:29

I would say, since the regulations have calmed down more and we've kind of got some of the paddles more in check, I'm a little less worried when I'm indoors. I might. If I'm indoors and I'm playing a specific person that I feel like either doesn't have great control over their swing or they just hit very hard. I will still put some clear indoor glasses on, but if I'm outside, I just always wear sunglasses at this point. So it's almost less about the protection is secondary and I just like that my eyes are shaded. But I. I mean, I have had multiple times where glasses have saved me from a literal direct hit straight to the eyes. So I think it's worth it.

Speaker 1: 36:07

It's. Yeah, I mean, like you said, with paddles getting hotter, there was a phase like you were mentioning where there are some paddles that were just insane, like the gearbox for a bit or that mod that are, I don't think any active anymore. But regardless, and still now, point being, there's hot paddles out there that are terrifying and what I see the most common injury and I've seen glasses save lives. I don't wear glasses personally. I just, I feel like I lose depth perception. But that's just a personal thing. Even if I'm playing beach volleyball, I can't wear them. I'd rather look straight in the sun. But anyway, the most common injuries are. This happened to Paul Lee just recently. Shout out Paul. Where deflected right off Jeff's paddle and went straight in his face. It's not the ones that are coming straight at you. I mean, they are, but it's the ones that come off your partner's paddles are what I see the most by far.

Speaker 2: 36:54

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've even had probably once or twice where I went to hit a block, and I just, like, I twisted my wrist a little too early and, like, just popped it up and hit myself. And, like, it's not always just like, someone hits a speed up and hits like, it's.

Speaker 1: 37:12

I think this is just a personal thing because I haven't seen that once.

Speaker 2: 37:15

Chris, you got to keep the 35 brand in check, you know?

Speaker 1: 37:18

Oh, my God. Okay. And then one of the last things that I wanted to talk about with paddle tech is different services, too. There's the carbon fiber services, Kevlar, and there's a lot of brands that experiencing. Experimenting with different faces. Is there one that you think is best or, you know, where do you see that part of paddle tech going? And what fits players better than others?

Speaker 2: 37:43

Yeah, I think what's. You know, as people have learned more and more about paddles and how they're built and all these different things, I think back in the day, it was. It was as simple as, oh, it has a fiberglass face, it has a carbon fiber face, or it has a Kevlar face. But now there's so many different things that companies can do with multiple layers. They might do four different layers, carbon fiberglass, Kevlar. They might do three different layers, and they're all the same. They might do them, you know, woven at different angles. Like, there's all these things that can completely change how a paddle feels. So I think it's almost less important saying, oh, this one has a Kevlar face. And it's more like, how many layers is it? What are the layers underneath it? Is it all Kevlar or, you know.

Speaker 1: 38:30

So it can get very.

Speaker 2: 38:31

That goes really deep in the weeds. You know, I think if people are out there and they're like, should I buy a Kevlar paddle or raw carbon fiber? Like, generally speaking, raw carbon fiber paddle is probably still what 90% of the market uses, if not more like, yeah, there are unique advantages of others But I wouldn't stress about it.

Speaker 1: 38:50

And then last point there. What do you think is more important to a paddle's performance? Either really high grit or high. And for those that don't know, the difference with high grit is, you know, how gritty the paddle feels on the face of, like, a carbon fiber face, for example, and it can help generate a lot of spin on, you know, softer shots, maybe like a little flick or a little roll. Whereas dwell time is how long the ball is going to sit on the face of a paddle for harder shots, put aways in a drive, for example. What do you think is more important between those two?

Speaker 2: 39:24

Yeah, so this is a really interesting one, and I think a nuance that probably doesn't get talked about enough is a lot of people like to say one or the other.

Speaker 1: 39:32

Right.

Speaker 2: 39:32

I mean, the first thing anyone does when they get a paddle in the mail is they go. They feel it up it and go, how rough is it? So, which I think is important. Right. But I think what people don't often consider is that when you're hitting from the baseline, you're hitting serves, you're hitting ground strokes. I think that dwell time and low grit can work pretty well because the paddle, the ball is sinking in and the grit is grabbing more of the ball because you're swinging so big. But then if you had took that same paddle and you went up to the kitchen, you might not experience as much spin, because now you're not. The ball is on a dink. It's soft on a roll that you're not getting the sinking into the face that you would get. Now you're depending more on the grit. So I actually think both matter a lot. But people like to treat it like it's one over the other, especially these days. You know, the big, I would say word in probably the last eight months has been dwell time, which I think is completely important. Not saying it's not important, but it's. People are like, oh, I'd rather have dwell time than grit. And it's like, well, you kind of need both. If you had a lot of dwell time, but your paddle was literally smooth as glass, you would not get good spin. Yeah, maybe on some shots, but not everything.

Speaker 1: 40:47

No, that makes total sense. That's. That's. That's a good breakdown. I feel like that kind of answers a lot of people's questions, too. And one of the final questions I have before we transition to our. Our fun game of. Of this or that pickleball edition, just to wrap Up a lot of the points we had is finding a paddle for a player. Is it more important for an athlete to find a paddle that's going to fix and be a crutch for their weaknesses that they have in their game? Maybe they're not good at dinking or the soft part of the game. Or would it better to find a paddle that plays into an athlete's strengths?

Speaker 2: 41:21

Generally speaking, I would say it's better to play to your strength, because I think if you get one that plays to your weakness, let's say you're great defensively, but you're just not that awesome at putting a ball away. Someone like me, I was just about to say it. I knew you were going to say it, so I was like, I was.

Speaker 1: 41:39

Going to let you say it this time. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:42

I think if you are that type of player, if you get a more poppy, powerful paddle now, you're probably sacrificing the thing you're good at and you're only moderately increasing the thing that you're bad at. So to me, if you're a banger, you might as well get a paddle that's hotter and just try and end the point quickly, you know? And if you're someone that's great at the control game, I'm not saying it's not nice to have, like a little extra pop or something, but I think if you just know that's what you're good at, just embrace it and find a paddle that makes you feel comfortable at the things you're good at, and then you can, you know, like the rest of this podcast is designed for, go and drill and fix the things that you're not good at for sure.

Speaker 1: 42:23

Which you don't. You don't drill a lot, do you, these days?

Speaker 2: 42:26

I don't get to drill a ton, but I am about to finish the court in my backyard, and then the drilling is about to go up, then we can have a rematch.

Speaker 1: 42:34

When is that going to be done?

Speaker 2: 42:35

Hopefully a week and a half.

Speaker 1: 42:37

Okay. Yeah. Do you have an extra. Do you have a spare bedroom?

Speaker 2: 42:42

You know, I do. However, I don't. I don't know if you want to come here. You might. People might not hear from you again.

Speaker 1: 42:47

Yeah, that's probably true. Okay, good time to transition into this or that Pickleball edition. Only rule is you have to answer immediately. Okay. I want this to be your intuitive thought, you know, I don't want you to have to think about the answers. And once you start, you can go in any direction you like. Okay. Are you ready?

Speaker 2: 43:07

Are you presenting me with like a yes or a no or, like, two options?

Speaker 1: 43:10

Two options.

Speaker 2: 43:12

Okay.

Speaker 1: 43:13

It'll be very easy. This will be a very quick rundown. Okay.

Speaker 2: 43:16

All right.

Speaker 1: 43:16

Ready?

Speaker 2: 43:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:18

Wide body or elongated paddle shape?

Speaker 2: 43:20

Wide body.

Speaker 1: 43:22

Singles or doubles? Pickleball?

Speaker 2: 43:23

Doubles.

Speaker 1: 43:25

Franklin or Vulcan's?

Speaker 2: 43:27

Franklin.

Speaker 1: 43:28

Third shot drop or third shot drive?

Speaker 2: 43:31

Drop.

Speaker 1: 43:33

Indoor or outdoor? Pickleball?

Speaker 2: 43:36

Indoor.

Speaker 1: 43:37

Cats or dogs?

Speaker 2: 43:39

Dog.

Speaker 1: 43:40

Great answer. I was about to be pissed. Posting content and engaging with YouTube or Instagram?

Speaker 2: 43:47

Oh, YouTube for sure.

Speaker 1: 43:49

Melon hats or breathing.

Speaker 2: 43:55

Melon hat?

Speaker 1: 43:57

MLP style tournaments or traditional, like app? PPA bracket style?

Speaker 2: 44:02

Traditional.

Speaker 1: 44:02

Okay. Standard or rally scoring?

Speaker 2: 44:06

Standard.

Speaker 1: 44:07

Rubik's Cubes or having friends?

Speaker 2: 44:10

I'll go having friends.

Speaker 1: 44:12

Nice. Podcasting with Aizic or pickleball?

Speaker 2: 44:15

Will I. I mean, I gotta say, my brother. Right?

Speaker 1: 44:20

Do you mean it?

Speaker 2: 44:22

I. You know, I do, but that is a really hard one. They both. They both are good.

Speaker 1: 44:27

Love them both.

Speaker 2: 44:27

That's all I got.

Speaker 1: 44:28

That was real quick. Just want to do a quick rundown. You did great. You handled that like a champ.

Speaker 2: 44:33

I thought there was going to be a hard curveball in there or something.

Speaker 1: 44:36

The breathing one was tough. Right?

Speaker 2: 44:38

I did have to think about that for a second. And I apparently learned today that I would rather die than give up my melon.

Speaker 1: 44:44

That's fair. Okay, well, that's all we got for you today, Chris. We really appreciate you joining here. I can't wait to go to Minnesota and do a rematch on your court. We will be filming that. We will be doing a breakdown. I cannot wait. We haven't played in a while and I feel like you're the same level, you know, you haven't gotten any better. So I'm really excited to show you what I've. What I've done in my game. So it'll be fun.

Speaker 2: 45:07

I can't wait to teach you how to hit a backhand. You knew I had to throw it in there at least once.

Speaker 1: 45:14

Bye, everyone. Thank you. My camera's following me. My camera's following me. It's not a good way to end it.

Speaker 2: 45:21

You can't escape.

Speaker 1: 45:22

All right, we'll cut it, Sam.